The GANDER (& GANDAR)
One-Name Study

Reference Number: t18391021-2774
Verdict: Guilty: lesser offence
Punishment: Imprisonment: other

Rebecca GANDER was indicted for unlawfully, maliciously, and feloniously assaulting Thomas Baker BATES, on the 21st September, and cutting and wounding him upon his left arm, with intent to maim and disable him - 2nd count, stating her intent to be to do him some grievous bodily harm.

Thomas Baker BATES: I am a labourer, and live in Virginia Row, Bethnal Green. The prisoner lives with a man in the same house as me - I believe she is not married - on the 21st of September, about 11 o'clock at night, she was having some words with the man she lived with - I heard her mention my name, with very bad words attached to it, and I went up, intending to speak with her - she threw the contents of a vessel down stairs at me, but it escaped me - the man said to me 'come up' - I went up, and she called me a b------ rogue and a b------ thief - I said, 'you are a b------- w------ for so saying' - she immediately thrust a knife at me towards my breast - I warded it off with my arm - a little scuffle ensued, and I received the cut on my arm - she was in a great passion - I do not think she knew what she was about at the time - she was very kind to my wife and children formerly. I sent for an officer, and gave her in custody - this was Saturday night - I went to a surgeon on Monday - the Magistrate sent me.

Cross-examined by Mr.PAYNE: Q. You did not think proper to go to a surgeon unless you had been sent? A. No - I was up on Monday morning, and did a little work - I had been drinking in the afternoon, and was not exactly sober - many words passed on both sides.

John LEESON - I am a surgeon. I saw the prosecutor on the Tuesday - the wound was superficial and 2 inches in length, on the left arm - I was instructed by the Magistrate to attend to him till he got well - it healed very quickly - he was soon able to attend to his work.

William LEECH - I am a policeman. On the Saturday night, the prosecutor came to me, with his arm bleeding - I went to the prisoner's house, and took her - I told her the charge - she said he had no business in her room, and she would serve him out.

(The prisoner received a good character.)

GUILTY of an assault only. Aged 53 - Confined Three Months.

Reference Number: t18431023-2949
Verdict: Guilty: with recommendation;
Punishment: Imprisonment: other

2949. FREDERICK LAWFORD and MICHAEL COPELAND were indicted for stealing, on the 19th of Sept., 3 ale glasses, value 1s. 6d.; 3 brushes, 1s. 6d.; and 1 spoon, 1/2 d.; the goods of William Clements: 2 flower pots, value 2d.; 2 geranium plants, 3d.; and 1 saucer, 1d.; the goods of Harriet Ann GANDER.

FREDERICK WILLIAMS (police-sergeant S 26.) On the 19th of Sept., about nine o'clock at night, I saw the prisoners in the Hornsey-road, about 150 yards from the Forresters' beer-shop, coming from there towards London - I had received information, and stopped Lawford - I asked him what he had got in his pocket - he said, 'Nothing' - I found a drinking-glass in his pocket - Copeland was in his company - he walked towards the wall, and we heard a glass fall over the wall - he dropped it over - (it was dark) - I then went to the wall and took Copeland - a young man with me got a light, and found the glass that Copeland had dropped - he came back over the wall - I handed Copeland to Beale, and I took Lawford again - I then saw Copeland hand something to Rolfe - I found it was a brush and another ale-glass - I found in his pockets two other brushes, and another ale-glass - in going along I found Copeland was very uneasy, and wanted to get rid of something - I put my hand into his pocket and found a spoon - when I first stopped them, Copeland had two flower pots in his hand, tied in a handkerchief, which he handed to some other person - (there were several persons about) - when we got to the station I found a saucer - Copeland said he did not know how the spoon came there, somebody else must have put it there - he said he lived at No. 15, Mary's-place, Mary-street, Hampstead-road - I went there on the 20th, and in searching I found two ale glasses and some other things.

Cross-examined by MR. PAYNE. Q. Did you see these persons come from the Forresters'? A. No; I met them on the road - they were not drunk.

HENRY ROLFE. I live in Hornsey-road - I was at the Forresters' beershop on the night of the 19th Sept., sitting in the tap-room, having a pint of ale - I saw the prisoners there - Lawford had a glass in his pocket - I told the barmaid, and they sent me for a policeman - I was going back with the policeman, and met them - the policeman stopped Lawford, and Copeland went to the wall and threw a glass over - I got a light, and found it - on the road to the station, Copeland gave me a glass and a brush - he said, 'Pray to God to screen me from this' - I gave them to the policeman.

Cross-examined by MR. PAYNE. Q. What are you? A. A coach-smith - I was drinking and smoking - nothing else - there was no tossing going on - there were seven or eight persons in the same room - I have known Copeland about eleven months; ever since the house has been opened - he had lodged there.

Cross-examined by MR. BALLANTINE. Q. You saw Lawford with a glass in his pocket? A. Yes; one part in his pocket, the other was hanging out - anybody might see it - he was drinking at the time - I cannot say which glass it was.

HARRIET ANN GANDER. I am barmaid at the Forresters', kept by Mr. William Clements - the prisoners were there on the 19th of Sept. - I received information from Rolfe - I missed one glass first, and two afterwards - I afterwards missed three shoe brushes out of the drawer in the yard - I also missed a spoon, two flower pots, and a saucer - the ale glasses, brushes, and spoon, are Mr. Clements' - the flower pots and saucer belong to me.

Cross-examined by MR. PAYNE. Q. How do you know these glasses? A. One has the Forresters written on it - these flower pots were on a table in the back-yard - I have known Copeland between two and three years - he was in the habit of lodging at the house when my father kept it - we never missed any thing before - it was Copeland's wish to lodge there that night, and the landlady said she had not any room - she gave him a pint of beer because she could not accommodate him.

FREDERICK WILLIAMS re-examined. I found this saucer between Lawford's trowsers and the lining.

(The prisoners received good characters.)

LAWFORD - GUILTY . Aged 25.
COPELAND - GUILTY . Aged 26.

Recommended to mercy. - Confined Fourteen Days.

Reference Number: t18470301-837
Verdict: Guilty: other
Punishment: Imprisonment: other

837. WILLIAM BURFIELD was indicted for stealing, at St. George the Martyr, in the dwelling-house of Henry GANDER, 1 pocket-book, value 3s.; 1 Bank-note for the payment of £100.; and 4 Bank-notes for the payment of £50. each; the property of Francis George Shaw Skipp.

MESSRS. BALLANTINE and WILD conducted the prosecution.

FRANCIS GEORGE SHAW SKIPP. I am independent, and recently resided at Albert Villa, Finchley. I am now in the Queen's Bench prison - I was arrested for some debts on my return from examination before the Magistrate in this case - on the 26th of Jan. I was stopping at Drummond's Hotel, Euston-square - about that time I received £300. from Robarts and co.'s the bankers - there was one £100. note, and four £50. notes - a person of the name of Last, was stopping with me at the hotel - he is my cousin and brother-inlaw as well - we left the hotel about four or five o'clock in the afternoon of the 26th Jan. - I put the money in a pocket-book, and placed the pocket-book in my left boot - Mr. Last saw me put it there - I wore straps, and my trowsers fitted rather tight - it was impossible the pocket-book could get out - we got into a cab, and drove to the North and South American Coffee-house, where we dined - we left there, and after going to various places, arrived at the Catherine-wheel public-house, in the Borough on the morning of the 27th - at about five o'clock a policeman rang the bell for us there - the prisoner came to the door, we asked for beds, and were told there was only one to spare, and we consented both to occupy one bed - we went to the bedroom - the bed stood so that the door of the room was almost opposite the left hand corner of the bed - I placed myself at the foot of the bed - Last went over to the other side of the room - I was sitting at the extreme left hand corner of the bed - at the foot of the bed, opposite the door, and about a yard from the door - the door was about one yard from the left hand corner of the bed - Last was over at the other side of the bed, near the head of the bed on the other side of the room - I was at the foot on the left hand side, and he was at the head at the right hand side - he sat down on the bed at the head, with his back towards me - it was a four-post bedstead, of the ordinary size - the prisoner was there - I sat down on the bed taking my boots off - the prisoner pulled Mr. Last's boots off, I do not know whether I was sitting or standing at that time - I sat down, and put my left hand down on my trowsers, pressing on the boot to push the towards down, in order to undo the straps - in doing so I felt the pocket-book - I pressed on the pocket-book in my boot - finding the strap dirty, I turned to the prisoner and asked him to undo it for me - he undid the strap - Mr. Last was still sitting on the bed at the head, on the right hand side - the prisoner undid my strap, and partly pulled the boot off - in consequence of its being tight, I made the remark, 'I think I could get it off better myself' - I kicked it off with the other foot by pressing the toe of the other boot against the heel of my left boot - the prisoner then stopped down - I do not know whether he took the boot or not - he then made the remark, 'I must go down to lock my gates' - he went down stairs, leaving me with one boot on and one boot off - he returned in three or four minutes - he then undid the other strap, and pulled off the other boot - the whole time the prisoner was absent my brother-in-law was on the other side of the room - he did not move to my knowledge - he did not come to the foot of the bed - he kept at the other side of the room - to the best of my knowledge I think he was sitting the whole time - the prisoner took up my boot or boots, and I said, 'Stop, bring those boots back, I have a pocket-book in one of them' - he brought my boots and I turned them over, and put my hand into them - I found the pocket-book was gone - I said, 'Just come inside, I have lost a pocket-book with £300. - the door was open - he was partly in and partly out - he came in, and I closed the door - he said, 'Do you mean to accuse me of robbing you? I have not got it.' - I said, 'I mean to accuse you of nothing, I have lost my pocket-book, and only wish to find it' - he threw open his jacket, took one or two things from his jacket pocket, a bunch of keys and a handkerchief, making the remark, 'You may search me' - I lifted his cap from his head, but did not seach him any further - on my going nearer to him he said 'Keep your hands off me; do not be after putting anything into my pockets' - we searched at the bottom of the bedstead, where it would have been if it had fallen out of my boot, and also round about the room - I searched myself - he was close to me - we did not entirely search the room till Mr. GANDER came - the book not being found I said to the prisoner, 'I shall have a policeman' - he said he should call his master. he would not be treated in that way - we went to Mr. GANDER, the landlord's room, the prisoner, my brother-in-law, and myself - the prisoner went partly through the door, which is a kind of small place adjoining the room - it is a small room, closet, or passage, the Prisoner went in and spoke to Mr. GANDER - I did not hear what he said - Mr. GANDER came out after a little time - he came round to the room where I had my boots pulled off - he said he would not have any disturbance made in his house - he was perfectly satisfied with the honesty of his servant, to which I replied, 'I am not satisfied, I have lost £300., and I must have a policeman; I will have the house searched but what I will have my money found' - Mr. GANDER appeared perfectly satisfied, and the only remark he made was, 'I do not believe you ever had the money to lose' - he said he was satisfied I had not lost it there, and that his servant had not got it - he said he would have no row in his house - I wished to have the police called, and asked him for the key to get out - he or his servant had the key of the gate that leads into the street - I asked Mr. GANDER for the key to get out - he replied it was not his place to open the door - he told the prisoner to leave the room, and go and call another person up - he did not go - that was after I had accused the prisoner of the robbery - I went down to the yard and to the gates, but could not open them - I then went back to the room - the prisoner, my brother-in-law, and I think, Mr. GANDER and myself went - the prisoner finally opened the gates and let me out - I think full a quarter of an hour had elapsed since I asked to be let out to get a policeman - I went out and got Hall - he returned with me - by his desire I went out again, leaving him there, and fetched two more policemen, and returned with them and searched the room and gallery - one of the policemen went into Mr. GANDER's room - he allowed him to do so - we searched the yard and different carts there and found nothing - the prisoner was in the yard - I said to him, 'Now, if you will restore me my pocket-book I will give you ten sovereigns and ask you nothing' - he made some exclamation, puff, or some word of the sort - no person was searched to my knowledge - I heard nothing said about searching, with the exception of the prisoner offering to let me search him - in the room, but saying 'Keep your hands off.' When I went towards him - no person was searched after the policemen came - nothing was said about it, to the best of my memory - we then went to the station, my brother-in-law, the prisoner, the three policemen, and myself - I and my brother-in-law walked together the greater part of the way - it is my impression that we were in front the whole way, but the policeman says not - I do not know the place where the pocket-book is said to have been found - I believe we did pass Adam's-place' as it has been described to me, but I do not know it myself - we were walking next the road, near the curb - the prisoner was walking next the shops - he was near the shops, the policemen next, Last and myself outside - we did not walk in a row - I cannot say what the width of the pavement is - either Last or myself was on the outside - on the way the prisoner expressed a wish to have coffee two or three times, saying he was thirsty, but he did not - he was searched at the station, and my brother-in-law and myself also, at the request of Mr. GANDER - nothing was found.

Cross-examined by MR. CLARKSON. Q. What age are you? A. I was twenty-tree last July - when I left Drummond's Hotel I went into the City to dine at the North and South American Coffee-house - I went into the City on business with my brother-in-law - I went to two or three places, to Willis's, the Queen's Head public-house, in Newgate-street, to get some sweepstake tickets - I had dined before I went there - I also wanted to find a Mr. Abbott, who owed me money - I do not know where I went first - I went to one wine and supper-room and one coffee-shop, and to some public-houses - it might be four or five, or five or six places - I do not know how many I drank at - it is most likely that I drank wine and spirits that afternoon, but I do not know how many times - I cannot say whether I went to a dozen public-houses, and drank at a dozen public-houses - I was out twelve hours - I went to the dining-rooms at a quarter to seven - I do not think that I had a dozen glasses of spirits and water that night besides wine - I was perfectly sober - I forget the places I went to after the lapse of time - I was not inebriated - I forget the number of cabs I had that evening - there were a great many things pressing on my mind - I do not know how much I paid for cabs that night - I know the man demanded a great deal more than was right, and I paid him more than his fare - the cab which took us to the Catherine-wheel, we took, I think, in Oxford-street, I will not swear that - I do know where I went to first - I do not think I drank with the cab man - I will not swear I did not - I very often treat the cabmen, if it is late at night - I think we took the last cab about one o'clock - we arrived at the Catherine-wheel about five - I had been to two or three public-houses; to one in the Haymarket, and one just round the corner of the Haymarket - I do not know their names - I do not think that I went to as many as seven public-houses in the last cab, but I cannot tell you - it is very likely I had some supper - I had been going about all night after a person who owed me money - I had slept at the Catherine-wheel before, and knew the house, and knew I should most likely get a bed there - I do not always know where to get a bed at that hour in the morning - I was sleepy, and glad to get to bed - I do not know where we were when I told the cabman to drive there - I went there because I thought it the most likely place to get a bed at - the cabman drove there, and a policeman rang the bell for us; either I, or the cabman, or my brother-inlaw, asked him to do so - I do not know the size of the bed-room exactly - it was not a large room - I cannot say the size.

Q. Did you not, when the policeman came, tell him it was no use searching the prisoner; that you were satisfied he had not got the pocket-book about him, that you had searched him? A. I never said I had searched him - I said I thought he had not got it about him, because he had been down stairs - I did not put my hands into his pockets; he would not allow me to do so - I did not tell two policemen, James Hall and John Carter, that it was no use searching the prisoner, for he had been searched, and I was satisfied he had not got it about him - I did not put my hand into his jacket or waistcoat pocket - I did not turn out his trowsers' pocket - the prisoner was admitted to bail by the Magistrate, and has been at liberty ever since.

MR. BALLANTINE. Q. Just look at those two policemen, (Carter and Hall) are those two of them which came there? A. I believe they are; I think Asiter is the other - it was Hall that sent me away to get the other policemen - I left him behind - the prisoner came down to let me out at the gate - I was gone four or five minutes - the prisoner did not offer any resistance to the police - I saw nothing that rendered it necessary, on account of resistance, for there to be two more policemen - I am quite certain I did not tell the policemen I had searched the prisoner - my object in going about that night was to find Abbott, and draw some tickets at Willis's and at Mackintosh's, near Westminster-bridge, and there might have been two or three more places - I know the landlord of the Catherine-wheel by sight - he is now in Court.

GEORGE LAST. I am cousin and brother-in law to the prosecutor; he married my sister. I was with him on this occasion, the 26th of Jan. - I remained with him till we arrived at the Catherine-wheel - we were taken up into a bed-room there; and my boots were taken off by the prisoner, I then began to undress - I was on the left-hand side of the bed as you enter the room - I was nearer the head of the bed than the foot, about the middle, at the side of it - my cousin was on the foot of the bed - I saw one of his boots taken off - it was partly taken off, and then he kicked it off - the prisoner then went out of the room - I did not move from the side of the bed where I was until my cousin got up - that was after the prisoner had returned - he had just come into the doorway - I then got up - I did not see the other boot taken off - my cousin went to the door, and hallooed out for him to bring the boot back - he came back, and my cousin asked him if he had seen the pocket-book - I do not know whether he had his other boot off or not - I had not been drinking, and was not drunk - I had been drinking in the evening, but not for two or three hours previously - I was sober - I neither touched or saw this pocket-book in any way whatever.

Cross-examined. Q. Had you been with your brother-in-law from the time you left Drummond's hotel? A. Yes - I had been staying with him three or four months - that was in the country - I have been with him in London about six weeks - we were at two or three different places in London - we had been at the Camden hotel, Russell-street, Convent-garden, at the Garrick's Head, in Bow-street, and at Drummond's, near Euston-square - until that night, I had not been in the habit of going about with him to public-houses - I think we took the cab in the New-road that took us to the Catherine-wheel - we had been in two or three cabs during the day - I swear we had not been in five or six - we went into five or six public-houses, coffee-shops, betting-rooms, Derby sweepstake places, and wine-rooms - my brother-in-law has been married about two or three years - my sister is in the country - my brother-in-law was trying to avoid his creditors - I cannot say what time we had the last cab that day - we changed cabs at about seven or eight o'clock - we dined in the city - we got into the last cab, that took us to the Catherine-wheel, about eight or nine, or nine or ten o'clock, or somewhere thereabouts - I think we got out of one cab into another - I do not know what we paid the one we got out of - we had ridden in it two or three hours - I drank brandy and water, gin and water, ale, stout, and halfandhalf - no neat spirits nor wine - I am nineteen years old - I had not been on the spree in London for a month - we amused ourselves during the day time - I sometimes went by the name of Best - I never went by the name of west - I gave the name of Best on account of my brother's creditors - I never gave it before - my brother went by his proper name, except at the police-court - I have been a linen-draper's shopman, at Brighton, and in other situations, all in the drapery line - at the Catherine-wheel I saw my brother just lift the prisoner's cap off his head - he did not put his hands into the prisoner's jacket or waistcoat pocket, or turn out his pocket - the prisoner turned out two or three of his pockets - I cannot say as to whether it was his trowsers or waistcoat pocket - he threw open his jacket, and unbuttoned his waistcoat - I am quite sure I did not see his trowsers pocket hanging out - when in the last cab I had noticed a bulge in my brother-in-law's trowsers as he sat on the seat opposite me - he was married to my sister three or four years ago - she is twenty-three or twenty-four years of age.

JAMES HALL (police-constable M 101.) On Wednesday morning I was on duty in High-street, Borough, about a quarter past five - my attention was drawn to a cab, which stopped at the Catherine-wheel - I rang the bell, and the prisoner came to the door - I saw two persons alight from the cab, whom I have subsequently found out were Mr. Skipp and Mr. Last - I saw those two get out of the cab - about half an hour after I again saw Mr. Skipp - in consequence of what he said, I went back with him to the Catherine wheel - Mr. GANDER, the proprietor, Mr. West, Mr. Skipp, and the prisoner were there - they were standing in the yard - Mr. Skipp asked for a light to go up and search the bedroom - Mr. GANDER said he was not going to have people there searching his premises, making a noise to disturb his lodgers - I then told Mr. Skipp he had better go and get another officer - he went, and returned with two others - I then asked for a light to go and search the bedroom - Mr. GANDER then said he was not going to allow people there to search his premises, making a noise, and disturbing his lodgers - I heard Mr. Skipp tell the other two officers he had searched the prisoner himself, and was satisfied he had not got it about his person - a light was brought - Carter, myself, and Mr. Skipp went up stairs and searched the bedroom, and found nothing - the prisoner was given into custody when we came down - Asiter I believe would have searched him - the prisoner then opened his waistcoat, and said, 'You may come and search me again if you like' - Mr. Skipp then said it was useless to search him for he had searched him, and was satisfied he had not got the money about his person - that is the reason he was not searched - he was taken to the station.

Cross-examined. Q. Just describe the order in which you walked to the station? A. The prisoner, with me, proceeded first - he was on my right hand side, inside - Carter, Mr. West, and Mr. Skipp followed at a little distance behind - we went in that order about halfway to the station - then they passed us - the prisoner and me were in front when we passed Adam's place, which is about twenty yards from the Catherine-wheel.

MR. BALLANTINE. Q. Had you hold of the prisoner? A. I had hold of his arm at one time, but he seemed very willing to go - I had neither trouble nor difficulty - it did not require any assistance to take him to the station - I have never been in the Catherine-wheel before, and did not know the landlord - my brother constable had charge of Skipp and Last - it is generally necessary for a policeman to go with the prosecutor to the station - the prisoner was inside me the whole of the way - I was holding one arm part of the way - he was searched by the sergeant at the station - a complaint has been lodged against me about not having searched him before.

COURT. Q. Was any complaint lodged against you for not having searched him at the Catherine-wheel? A. There has been a complaint - we have to wait till this trial is over - the reason I did not search him is because Mr. Skipp said it was quite unnecessary - that is the reason I shall give to the Commissioner.

HENRY ASITER (police-constable M 30.) On the morning of 27th Jan. I was called to the Catherine-wheel inn - I stood by the prisoner while the other constable went and searched the room - Carter went with me, as he was on the adjoining beat, I called him across the road - the prisoner was given into custody, and taken to the station-house - I did not go with them - I was left in the yard.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you hear Mr. Skipp say he had searched the prisoner? A. He told me so at St. George's church, about 200 yards from the Catherine-wheel - he did not say he had searched the prisoner - he said he had been searched - that was on the way to the Catherine-wheel, before we went there - he had fetched me.

MR. BALLANTINE. Q. Did he tell you had searched him? A. He said he had been searched, and he was confident he had not got it about him - that was the reason I did not search him - I am included in the report - we have had to give a written statement of the circumstances to our inspector, Mr. Yates - we were given to understand the Commissioners had seen the account in the newspapers, and that we were complained of, for not searching the prisoner at the Catherine-wheel - I first heard that, the day after the second examination.

JOHN CARTER (police-constable M 191.) examined by Mr. CLARKSON. I heard Mr. Skipp say it was of no use searching the prisoner, as he had been searched, and he was satisfied he had not got it.

MR. BALLANTINE. Q. Have you been reported to the Commissioners for not searching him? A. I believe we have - we have not been before the Commissioners - I have not heard anything about it standing over - we have given a statement to the inspector.

JOHN SHELLY YATES (inspector of the M Division.) The prisoner was brought to the station by two constable, on the 27th - I produce a pocket-book which I received from a person of the name of Munro - when I received it, there were four £50. and one £100. notes in it - I took the numbers of them - they have been given up to Mr. Skipp's attorney - I am quite sure that it is the pocket-book, and that those notes were in it when they came to the station - the prosecutor was sober - he perfectly understood what he was about - Mr. Last was sober.

WILLIAM MUNRO. I am in the service of the Phoenix Gas company. I remember on the morning of the 27th Jan. receiving a pocket-book from a person of the name of Cox - I gave it to Yates - I saw it when it had the four £50. and the one £100. note in it.

WILLIAM COX. I am a servant to the Phoenix Gas Company, at Bankside. On the morning of the 27th Jan. I left my house at about ten minutes to six, to go to work - I had to pass by Adam's-place - I passed there about four or five minutes to six - in doing so, I kicked against something which turned out to be a pocket-book - it was nearly in the middle of the pavement - I did not observe it till I kicked against it - it was very near Adam's-place, not quite opposite - I know the Catherine-wheel, and the station-house also - Adam's-place is in the road from the Catherine-wheel to the station-house - it is about twenty-two yards or paces from the centre of the gate of the Catherine-wheel - I handed the pocket-book to Mr. Munro, in the state I found it.

FRANCIS GEORGE SHAW SKIPP re-examined. The left boot, in which the pocket-book was, was the first that was taken off.

GUILTY. Aged 59. - Confined Six Months.

Reference Number: t18620616-673
Verdict: Guilty: other
Punishment: Imprisonment: penal servitude

673. WILLIAM LEE (27) , Unlawfully obtaining £6. from Charles GANDER. Second Count, Obtaining £17. 10s. from Arthur Pinnock. Third Count, Obtaining £17. 10s. from Henry Anthony, by false pretences.

MR. BESLEY conducted the Prosecution.

ARTHUR PINNOCK . I am a licensed victualler, at 7, Oxford-terrace, King's-road, Chelsea - on 22d March, the prisoner brought me this cheque (produced) and asked me to cash it - I told him I could not cash it then, if he would look in later in the day I would do it, as I was busy - he said, 'I owe you a little account, you can take it out of it when you take the change' - I gave him a sovereign then, as he wanted some money; he said he was going a little way up the road - he called in afterwards, the same evening, and I gave him the remainder of the cheque, and he paid his little account, which was, I think, about 8s. - I asked him to endorse the cheque, which he did, in the name of Campbell - I had known him some eight months before by that name, living at No. 22, in the same terrace - I saw no more of him till he was taken in charge - I paid the cheque away and it was returned to me - I went on the Wednesday to the place where I understood him to live, and they said he had left; I did not see him - I was induced to part with the money on the belief that it was a good cheque, and knowing he was a neighbour I supposed it was all right - I asked him whether the cheque was all right, and he said 'Yes.'

Cross-examined by MR. PATER. Q. I believe you have known the prisoner some time? A. Yes; eight months - the cheque is on Marryatt and Price, for £17. 10s. - I have always known him to go by the name of Campbell - I have known since why he went by that name; it was not for the purpose of fraud - I believe he was living with a woman who took the house in that name - I knew nothing against his character or I should not have cashed the cheque - I asked him if it was all right, and he said, yes, he had it of a friend - I do not recollect whether the friend's name was given - the first time he came was on a Saturday evening, about 7 o'clock, when I was very busy; and then he left it with me, and came about 9 - I believed at the time that he acted perfectly bona fide in the matter, or I should not have cashed it - I believe he has been made a dupe of - I have expressed an opinion to that effect on more than one occasion.

MR. BESLEY. Q. If you had known the cheque to be fictitious should you have parted with your money? A. No; decidedly not.

COURT. Q. From your knowledge of him, did you believe his statement, that the cheque was good? A. Yes; and as a customer. (Cheque read: 'Sir Charles Price Bart. Marryatt, and Price; pay Mr. J. Coleman or bearer £17. 10s. 22d March, T.F. Remington.')

HENRY JAMES WOOD. I am cashier at Price, Marryatt, and Co.'s, bankers of King William-street - this cheque was presented to our firm for payment, and was returned, saying there was no account - we have never had any one named T. F. Remington, keeping an account at our bank - I have been in the bank about fourteen years

Cross-examined. Q. I suppose you keep yearly books? A. We keep books with names of persons who keep accounts at the bank - I searched the two signature books for the purpose of ascertaining - we have only two - Remington never had an account there - I do not know the signature on the cheque - we once had a person named Pearce - I do not know (that he adopted the name of Remington - I should know his writing if I saw it - his account is closed - I have not the books here containing the names - they are required at the office - I brought them here in the last case.

COURT. Q. Is any part of this cheque in Pearce's writing? A. No.

HENRY ANTHONY. I keep the Barley Mow, Dorset-street, Baker-street, Marylebone - the prisoner lodged at my house about a fortnight - he came there the week previous to 19th April, which was the day upon which he presented this cheque (produced) - it was between 8 and 9 o'clock on saturday evening - he owed me £2. 15s. 10d. - he said that he had received it too late to get it cashed at the bank, and asked me to advance him something upon it that evening - I gave him £2. that evening, and two or three more on the Sunday - I owed a small bill at Dock's in the Strand, and I went and paid the cheque there on the Monday - it was returned to me nine days afterwards as 'no account' - I parted with my money because I believed there was money in the bank to meet it.

Cross-examined by MR. ORRIDGE. Q. Have you known the prisoner some time? A. I knew him a week before he presented no with the cheque - he was lodging at my house - he came back after five or six days to receive the rest of the money.

COURT. Q. Do you remember on what day he came there? A. I believe it was on the Monday week afterwards; and he slept there one night, and than I understood he took another lodging and slept there, and then he came to my house and slept there one night, and then he left - (This cheque was for £17. 10s. drawn by T. J. Lawson and Co. on Messrs. Grindley and Co. dated 19th April).

CHARLES HANLEY. I am cashier to Messrs. Grindley, army agents, in Parliament-street - this cheque was presented to me for payment, on 28th April last - no cash was given for it, because we had no account of the drawers - it was signed by Lawson and Co., in favour of R. Lee, and we had not funds to meet it.

Cross-examined. Q. Do the different depositors enter their names in a book? A. No - we are obliged to take the list of them from letters; half our constituents are in India - I have not the book here in which we register our depositors' names.

COURT. Q. Are you able to say, of your own knowledge, that you had no account with those persons? A. I am.

CHARLES GANDER. I am a wine-merchant, carrying on business at Essex-street, Warwick-square, Pimlico - the prisoner brought me this cheque (produced) about twelve months ago, and asked me if I could give him cash for a cheque for £6. - I rang the bell for the waiter, and he handed the cheque to him to cash and he brought up six sovereigns and gave them to the prisoner - I parted with the money on the faith that the money would be paid for the cheque - the next morning about a quarter-past 9 I ascertained from Smith, Payne, and Smith's, that there were no effects.

Cross-examined. Q. The prisoner merely asked you to give him change for that cheque? A. Yes - I had known him about six weeks before, I suppose - I saw him at the police-station locked up, about five days, I should think, afterwards - I did not give him in custody upon that - he was taken in custody - the Magistrate discharged him, but the money was offered to me by three or four persons if I would not prosecute - three or four cheques were presented at the same time, which were forgeries - I was offered the money prior to the Magistrate's dismissing the case.

MR. BESLEY. Q. I believe at the time the Magistrate dismissed the charge, there was no other charge of fraud against him? A. Yes, there was, by a person in Wells-street.

COURT. Q. You say other persons had paid the money; did you hear anything from the prisoner about it? A. No, but from one of his accomplices.

MR. BESLEY. Q. Was there any one present before the Magistrate, giving evidence about the other cheque, at the time he was dismissed? A. Yes, the sergeant, and prosecutor of the other cheque - he had taken the money that was offered to him, but I would not do so - (This cheque was drawn by H. R. Johnstone and Co., in favour of George Miller for £6. on Smith, Payne, and Smith, dated 3d June).

COURT. Q. What name did you know him by? A. By the name of Stratford.

BEN. SMITH. I am a clerk in the employment of Messrs. Smith, Payne, and Smith, bankers - I do not know when this cheque was presented there - it did not come to me personally - there is no person named H. R Johnstone banking there - I have looked, and I know it independently of looking - I have looked further back than the last eight or nine years.

Cross-examined. Q. Do you mean to say you know the name of every depositor in Smith Payne's house, without referring to your books? A. I could not know without referring - if this cheque were presented to me, not knowing it, I should look at the books to see - I do not know this writing - I should look at the book in which customers write their names.

MR. BESLEY. Q. Have you any knowledge of the customers drawing on Smith Payne's? A. Yes - I do not know any person named H. R. Johnstone.

WILLIAM BODEN (Police-sergeant, D 11). On 12th May, from information I received, I went with Mr. Pinnock to 12, Crawford-street - I went up to the first-floor and knocked at the door - it was answered by a female - I said, 'Is Mr. Campbell here?' - she said, 'No, he is not here' - I pushed the door open, went in, saw the prisoner sitting there in an arm-chair - I said, 'Your name is Campbell; you are the man I want; I want you for obtaining £17. 10s. by means of a false cheque, from Mr. Pinnock' - Mr. Pinnock had followed me into the room - the prisoner said, 'All right, Sir; I have been made the dupe of others, will you allow me to go in a cab into the City and get the money to pay the amount, to pay Mr. Pinnock?' - Mr. Pinnock said, 'No; I shall charge you' - I conveyed him to the Chelsea police-station - on searching him there I found in his waistcoat pocket this notice of a dishonoured bill, (Read. 'Bill for £46. 8s. 4d. drawn by James Rossi, on F. R. Marriott, lies due at Alexander Ridgeway's, Leicester'square') - Rossi is the man who was tried yesterday - when I found that the prisoner said, 'That is not mine.'

COURT. Q. Was this - 'Bill on Marryatt, Grove-house, Moscow-road, Bays-water, the bill belonging to Spalding and Hodges,' written on it then? A. Yes.

MR. BESLEY. Q. How is it that the prisoner is here in the name of Lee? A. I cannot say - I find, on inquiry, his proper name is Lee-Stratford.

Cross-examined. Q. Do you know that he has been living with a woman, and has passed by the name of Campbell? A. Yes - he lived a very short time in the neighbourhood of Anthony, only a fortnight - I believe he is the dupe of others - I know the whole gang of them, and the man that was tried yesterday - I have known the prisoner connected with the gang about three weeks - they have been only three months in my neighbourhood, and during that time I have known them and had strict observation on them - the prisoner may have known them longer than three weeks for all I know - I do not swear he did not know them before - Mr. GANDER was in the neighbourhood where the people used to live before.

GUILTY. - Three Years' Penal Servitude on each of the first two counts, the second term to commence at the expiration of the first.

Reference Number: t18781021-898
Verdict: Guilty: other
Punishment: Imprisonment: penal servitude

898. HENRY COX (25), JOHN alias JOSEPH WIGMORE (22), and JOHN STEVENS (28) , Stealing 20 half-chests of tea, the property of Robert Warner.

MR. J. P. GRAIN conducted the Prosecution. WILLIAM SMITH (Detective Sergeant). I received instructions on Monday, 6th October, from Mr. Moore, the manager of Brook's Wharf, in consequence of which I went with West wood to Upper Thames Street about 12.30 or 1 o'clock and watched the wharf - about 2.10 I saw a van pull up at the wharf; I asked Westwood to follow it and I went after him; it stopped in Cannon Street - the driver looked round as if expecting some one, we then followed him to Eastcheap, where he stopped opposite the Cow and Calf and went into a beershop in Love Lane - I ordered Westwood to follow him - he returned to his van and drove to Stratford and from there to 25, Cambridge Terrace, West Ham - he knocked at the door and went in - I went in, and while talking with him, Cox came up - I told him I was a police officer and should take him in custody for being concerned in stealing tea, pointing to some tea in the shop and the remaining portion of it in the van - he said 'I know nothing about it' - I said 'You occupy this place?' - he said 'I don't, it is Mr. McQuillen's' - one of the witnesses said 'You know you do, Mr. Cox' - I inquired for the landlord and Sinclair came and said that he did occupy it and paid 14s. a week for it - Sinclair also said 'Who is the other party who comes with you?' - Cox said 'I don't know and I decline to say' - there was nothing to show that business was being carried on there - I found three empty tea chests there - I took him in custody, took possession of the tea, left Westwood there, and took Cox to Bow Lane police-station, where I charged him for being concerned with others in stealing the tea - he gave his address 48, Lichfield Road, Bow, and about 10.30 p.m. I went there with Westwood, and in a back parlour or kitchen, found Stephens, Wigmore, and another person, and Cox's wife - I asked the wife who those persons were, she said that one was her husband's brother - I had stated that we were police officers - I asked Stevens his name - he said 'Stevens' - I said 'You are employed at Brooks' Wharf?' - he said 'Yes, I am a scaleman' - I said 'I shall take you in custody for being concerned with Cox in stealing tea' - I then said to Wigmore 'Your name is Wigmore?' - he said 'Yes, Joseph' - I said 'I shall also take you for being concerned in stealing the tea' -
Stevens said 'I know nothing about it' - Wigmore made no reply - Stevens afterwards said 'I met Wigmore in the Bethnal Green Road this afternoon; no, I mean this evening, and he told me there was some trouble' - Stevens said in the cab 'I know nothing about this affair' and afterwards 'I am sorry I am in this trouble' - I took them to Bow Lane - I have omitted that I said to Wigmore 'You were in a public-house with Harrison, the carman, this afternoon' - he said 'Yes' - I said 'Wigmore said you had not that overcoat on then' - he said 'No, I had not' - two or three days afterwards I went to No. 10 or 11, Little George Street, Minories, and found these documents relating to sweepings and to the delivery of tea at different wharves and docks - that is where Wigmore carries on business - he has. only one room - I understand they are sampling orders by which he could get access tothe wharf - I found on Cox this document relating to the rent of No. 25; it has Wigmore's name on it - I also found on Cox this newspaper report of a tea robbery at the Mansion House.

Cross-examined by Cox. You came to Cambridge Terrace 10 or 20 minutes after I arrived - Mr. McQuillen said to you 'Oh, Mr. Cox, why do you bring us into this trouble?' - you at first denied being the occupant of the place - that was why the landlord was sent for - we had got the four half-chests of tea reloaded before you arrived, but they had been into your house - I said to Harrison, the carman, 'Is this one of the men engaged in this transaction?' and he said 'Yes.'

HENRY THOMAS COOPER. I am a delivery carman in the employ of Thomas Warner and Son, of Brooks' Wharf - on 5th October, at closing time, 4 o'clock, as I was leaving I saw Cox and Wigmore - Wigmore asked me if I knew Joe Cook, and would I fetch him - I said 'Yes,' but I could not find him, and came back and saw them outside a public-house at the top of the street; Cox said 'Will you come and have something to drink?' - we all four went into a public-house, and they said 'Would you like a 10l. note? ' - I said that I should - they said that I could have one by letting goods go away from the firm that I served, and they would give me the money in the evening - they suggested that a carman should come down with a list, and that I should honour the list and give the goods, and that Harrison should be the carman, and I should know him by that name - Stevens said he would see that the goods on the list should be goods in the warehouse - the pass was to be taken by Stevens or myself in the event of their getting the goods - it was to be given by me - I. was to take it from the gatekeeper's file - the prisoners were all present at this conversation - the passes taken by the gatekeeper are checked every night by the warrants, and if one was taken away it would destroy his record - I then left them, and on Monday morning I told Mr. Moore, and received instructions from him, and about 2 o'clock on Monday afternoon a van came to the wharf driven by a man who I now know as Harrison - he handed me this list (produced) - a warrant is lodged first, and then the list is brought to, me, and I select the goods to be delivered. (Read: Per Harrison, please deliver 20 chests of Congou 281 to 300 per Holman's.) Those were rotation numbers of chests on my floor; they had come by the ship Placenta - Stephens was the foreman; it was his duty to see that it was done - he would have cognisance of all matters contained in that document - I delivered the tea and gave Harrison this pass (produced) - it was my duty to have the Customs warrant to show that the duty had been paid, but in this case an arrangement was made with the Customs, and the tea was delivered without a warrant.

Cross-examined by Cox. I have been rather over four months in Mr. Warner's employ - previous to that I was at Hay's Wharf - I believe I had a character from there - I got a week's notice to leave - I was rather puzzled over a ship; they thought I was incompetent, and discharged me - my meeting with you was quite accidental as far as I was concerned - we adjourned to the Hatchet public-house and drank there - Stevens joined us just as we came out of the wharf, and I think he accosted me - I admit that I was slightly inebriated, but I recollect all that occurred, and told my employers - a man came in who I told you was the night watchman - I know you suggested robbery, and I acquiesced in it - you asked me if I should like to improve the state of my funds and I said 'Yes, they are not very plentiful' - I do not remember lending Stevens two shillings; you gave me a half-crown to go and get something more to drink.

Cross-examined by Stephens. I don't recollect lending you 2s. - I drank several two's of whisky - I don't recollect saying 'Stevens, do you want that 2s. particularly, because I want to take something home, and shall have to go home and get money and come back again,' nor did you say 'I have broken into it and can only give you 1s. 6d.' - we had another meeting on Monday about 12 o'clock - I received 5s. from Cox; that was the second 5s. I had received from him - you did not assist me in delivering the chests of tea to Harrison - I did not see you - I should give it to the loophole man, and he would give it to Collins, who would get the goods out and send them down. to me, and I should deliver them.

Re-examined. Stevens was present on the Monday when I received the 5s., but I think he was present at 12 o'clock, when I received another 5s. from Cox, I had received from my principal, and went there at 12 o'clock - Stevens accompanied me to the door, and pointed out where Cox was, or I should not have known where to find him - it was after that that I got the 5s.

JAMES WILLIAM GREW. I am a clerk at Holman and Co. 's, tea merchants in Mincing Lane - Cox was a sampler there - I know his writing - this list is his writing - it has never passed through the office - I am the person who writes out lists.

Cross-examined by Cox. I remember your being in Holman's employ for about three years; you bore a very good character - you did not leave for any dishonest act; you were discharged because you took so long about your work.

HENRY JAMES MOORE. I am one of the managers at Brooks' Wharf - Stephens was my foreman - it was his duty to weigh the tea when it came in, and put a number on it - Cooper was the delivery foreman - it was his duty to deliver goods and to give the carman a pass - on 7th October he made a communication to me as soon as I arrived, and I gave him instructions how to act - after I had heard that the 20 chests had gone out, I went to the gatekeeper and found the pass - I kept it, put another in its place, and produced it at the Mansion House - this (produced) is the one I put on - no warrant had been presented, and no duty paid on the goods - I had arranged with the Customs.

Cross-examined by Cox. It was not my duty to deliver goods without a warrant - I called on the Custom House officer, but he was out - I called on him afterwards, and he said that I could say that I had his sanction - we receive a list like this from a carman like Harrison, who was not accustomed to the business - it is not necessarily stamped by the firm it represents, nor does it have any signature.

Cross-examined by Stevens. You were the only weighing forman in the China department - it may be that three or four weighing foremen have the cargo, but not generally - occasionally we have three scales - I have found fault with you when weighing the ends - each man knows the full particulars for the time being of the whole ship.

EDWARD HUDSON. I am a clerk at this wharf, and have to check the passing of warrants - I had a conversation on this morning, and I was in the delivery box when Harrison handed this warrant to Cooper - I have searched and can find no proper document of any kind - I checked the passes in the evening, and found this pass and no warrant to check it by.

WILLIAM HENRY HARRISON. I am a master carman - I have known Cox and Wigmore a few years, but did not know Stevens until I saw him in Court - I have not done business with Cox and Wigmore before - I did not see them on Saturday, 5th October, but I did on Monday morning in Talbot Court, about 11 o'clock, when Wigmore came to me and said that he wanted a load of tea taken to Stratford - I said that I was very busy and could not do it - he said 'You must; we are going to open a shop and I must have them down' - I agreed to do it - he got into my van, which was there, and we went to the corner of Victoria Street and waited there - he said he wanted to see Cox or his friend, I forget which - he left me for a quarter of an hour or 20 minutes, and returned with Cox, who gave me this list of 20 half-chests of tea - they went away and said they would meet me at Travers' in Cannon Street - I went to Brooks' Wharf, spoke to Cooper, and asked him whether the goods were clear, and whether he had the warrant; that is the custom - he told me as soon as I could get under I should have the goods - that was after showing him the document - the 20 half-chests then came down from the loophole into my van, and were called over by Cooper - I drew up and gave the gatekeeper the pass - I then went to Cannon Street as I was told, and stopped opposite Travers' for three or four minutes - the police won't allow you to stop long - I saw no one, and drove to my place at Eastcheap, and stopped there about an hour and a half - I then went round to my house, where Wigmore had left word that I was wanted at Love Lane - I went there and saw him - he gave me this written address: '25, Cambridge Terrace, Stratford,' and said that Cox and he were coming down by rail, and I was to take the goods there - I did so, and when I had taken four of the chests in, the police came up.

Cross-examined by Cox. I have known you a year or two - I am not mistaken - I was at Stratford an hour or an hour and a half before you came there - the four chests had then been brought out again.

RICHARD SINCLAIR. I live at Cambridge Terrace, West Ham - Cox took this place of me about 13th August, at 14s. a week, which he paid me, and I gave him these receipts, they are in my son's writing - I live close by and have seen packages going in which looked like chests of tea - I have seen Cox and Wigmore frequently in the shop together.

Cross-examined by Cox. I have seen both packages and blue bags going in - you did not deny to Sergeant Smith that you rented the place.

HENRY MCQUILLEN. I am scaleman at a warehouse in Cutler Street - I know Wigmore and Cox - on Monday, 6th October, I saw them at Cox's house - I asked Cox about the rent - he said 'I shall be down there for some tea tomorrow, and I will settle it;' knowing that Mrs. Sinclair wanted some tea, I thought he meant that - there were no fittings in the shop.

Cross-examined by Cox. There were scales and weights there - you used to do up pounds and half-pounds of tea every week - you had some connection.

ELIZABETH GANDER. I am a widow and live at Little George Street, Minories - Wigmore took a room of me in April at 14s. a week - I have seen him and Cox there, and have seen tea come in, and packages and bags.

Cox in his defence contended that Cooper was so drunk that his evidence was not reliable or probable, and stated that he was not aware that any tea had been taken into his house and taken out again, until he was in the cab in custody, that he had not given authority to Harrison to take it there, and had never seen Cooper before.

Stevens in his defence stated that Cooper treated him to a glass of ale and a cigar, and lent him 2s., which he afterwards wanted returned; that on the Monday night he was going to the Bethnal Green Museum, and met Wigmore, who asked him to take a walk, and took him to a house which turned out to be Cox's, where he was taken in custody, but knew nothing about the tea, and had nothing to do with the robbery.

WIGMORE received a good character. - GUILTY . - Five Years' each in Penal Servitude.

Reference Number: t18930306-343
Verdict: Not Guilty: other

343. WILLIAM GANDER and JOSEPH CHALKLEY, Unlawfully conspiring with Andrew Mann and Robert Tournay (not in custody) to defraud John Russell and Co. of their goods and chattels, and obtaining metal piping from them by false pretences with intent to defraud.

MESSRS. BODKIN, TRAVERS HUMPHREYS and BANCROFT Prosecuted.

ALFRED NORMAN. I am London manager, at 145, Queen Victoria Street, for J. Russell and Co., iron tube manufacturers Wednesbury - I received this letter, of 15th November, from Tournay and Co., decorators and contractors, 1, Dudley Terrace, Philip Lane near West Green Station, asking for a list of gas tubing, and what our discount was - I quoted prices in answer - I received this letter from Tournay and Co., dated 19th (This ordered certain gas tubing to be delivered at their premises) I gave instructions for the goods to be forwarded - the invoice price at one month's credit was. 19s. 10d., subject to two and a half per cent, discount - on 19th December, in consequence of a letter I received, I went to 1, Dudley Terrace - I found it was a small house with stables; it was closed - when I had the goods sent I believed there was a genuine bonâ-fide firm at the address - the goods have never been paid for - on 19th December I saw the goods at the Tottenham Police-station, and identified them by our mark on them.

Cross-examined by GANDER. I had a reference to Stubbs and Co., of whom I inquired, and I considered it was sufficiently satisfactory to send up to £20 worth - I never saw you in the transaction.

Cross-examined by Chalkley. I don't know what business was carried on at Dudley Terrace - I did not see you - our terms would not be eighty per cent, discount off - its actual price ought not to be £15 - I did not state at Edmonton that a fair price for Tournay to sell them at would be £15 - I do not think I was asked the question.

WILLIAM JUBB. I am an ironmonger, of Summerhill Road, Tottenham - I first knew GANDER a few days before 16th December, when he called at my Shop and said he had some iron barrel for sale - I asked if it was his own property - he said, 'No,' he was commissioned by a friend to sell it - I asked how much there was of it, and the value, and whether it was new or second-hand, and he told me it was new, and was about £25 nett, I think - he told me he had been a builder and decorator - I told him it was a very heavy amount; I could not entertain that if it was new stuff, unless I saw the invoice - he promised to bring me the invoice the following day - he came during Saturday 14th and brought me this paper, which had no printed heading, but is just a description of the articles - I told him it was of a very informal character, and I could not purchase the goods unless I saw them - I asked him where the goods could be seen - he said, 'At an empty shop at Stamford Hill, near the South Tottenham Station' - I arranged to meet him some few hours afterwards and go with him - he came for me afterwards; in the interval I had communicated with the police officers - I went with him to an empty shop on Stamford Hill, in the occupation of Cox, who was there - we went through the shop into the back yard, where I saw the property in question, a quantity of new barrel, galvanised and black, and a bag containing gas fittings - Cox in GANDER 's presence told me he had certain charges on this barrel, and that he could not let it go till these charges were paid - I said that had nothing to do with me - Cox said he had been carting it about the day before trying to sell it for GANDER and could not succeed in doing so; I thought he had a claim on it - he said his claim was some shillings - I and GANDER went bask to my shop and I offered him £12, or £12 10s., or £15; I think it was £15; I cannot recollect clearly - whatever offer I made I made by arrangement with the police - GANDER tried to get more, but eventually he accepted my offer - he was to have my cheque when he delivered the barrel, which he said he would do that day - it came on the evening of the following day, the 16th - I was not at home then, and saw nothing of the arrest.

Cross-examined by GANDER. Cox did not tell me that the stuff belonged to Tournay - on our way to my place you said it belonged to Tournay - I had no knowledge of Tournay's son previous to your arrest; I knew of him afterwards - you did not say you would have to see Tournay before you could take what I offered; we agreed the price before we parted.

Cross-examined by Chalkley. I marked on this list of the stuff these figures as the value of it, and they amount to £16 13s. 3d. - that is the price I agreed to pay, as far as my impression carries me now - he said there would be £50 or £60 worth gross - Cox had a claim for thirty shillings on it - I said I would give thirteen guineas for the whole lot and the bag of fittings, subject to measurement - that would be fair value, buying it as a job line - in the usual trade way of business they would have cost £15 13s. 3d. - before going to Cox I communicated with the police, because I had my suspicions after receiving a document of this character, which I was told in the first instance would be a proper invoice - at Cox's house there were old rags, iron, and a few things appertaining to a general dealer - I do not know of any business carried on at 1, Dudley Terrace - I saw the words 'Builders and Decorators' outside, but in passing and repassing I have never seen a ny decorative business going on - I passed many times a day - it is partly a house and partly a shop - I have lived at my house for thirty years; it was not built at that time for the purpose of a decorator's business - a coal dealer had it previously for several years; he was there till the early part of 1892 - there was a gate by the side of the house - I live about 100 yards off - I did not know you till you were in custody.

Re-examined. Cox did not mention Tournay as the person selling; GANDER suggested that Tournay owned the piping.

GEORGE WILLIAM BROWN. I am a carman employed by the London and North-Western Railway - on 3rd December I delivered a load of gas-pipes and gas-fittings from Camden Town Station to 1, Dudley Terrace - this label was attached (This bore the name of 'John Russell and Co.') - when I delivered the goods a woman opened the door, and she went and fetched a man I do not know - he took the things inside the workshop.

FRANCIS WILLIAM RODEN. I am a clerk in John Russell and Co. 's employment at their Wednesbury works - on 30th November, in consequence of instructions from our London office, I despatched a quantity of iron pipes and fittings to Tournay and Co., 1, Dudley Terrace, Philip Lane, near West Green Station - this is the label I put on the goods; and the mark put on them for the railway was B 1098.

- DUCKLING. I am a blacksmith, of 57, Ida Road, Tottenham, and work for Mr. Jubb - about 16th December GANDER brought some iron tubing in a van to Jubb's about twenty minutes to six p.m. - Jubb was absent - a carman named Bevis was with GANDER - they prepared to unload the goods - shortly after GANDER went over to the Lord Palmerston public-house, and then Murphy came on the scene - Cox was also there, but was not helping; I saw him talking with GANDER.

ROBERT MURPHY (Detective-sergeant, Tottenham). I served a subpoena on Cox to attend here - he was here on Tuesday, and I warned him yesterday to be here this morning - he is not here this morning - I wired to him, and got a reply this morning - prior to about 2nd or 3rd December, 1892, I instructed Henbest to watch 1, Dudley Terrace - on 16th December I was in plain clothes in Clyde Road, Tottenham, about seven p.m. - I saw a van backed up to Jubb's premises; GANDER and Bevis were unloading it - Cox was there, but not with the van - in the van was a quantity of new iron gas barrel - I asked GANDER what he was doing, and I pointed to the contents of the van and said, 'This is all new iron piping' - he said, 'It is nothing to do with Mr. I am only employed by someone else, as you might be. The one that will tell you all about it is in the corner; it is not mine' - he pointed to the Lord Palmerston at the corner - I took him into custody, telling him his account was not satisfactory as he was in possession of it - I asked GANDER the name of the man in the corner, but he could not tell me - he took a book out of his pocket, but could not find any name in it - I went to the Lord Palmerston, where I found Chalkley and Cox - I said to Chalkley, 'How do you account for the possession of the iron that you have just brought to Jubb's?' - he said, 'I cannot give any account; I am here to draw the money. It is not mine; it is Tournay's. It has been in Cox's possession about a week. I had to pay him 30s. to get it, and that I had to borrow' - I told him his account was not satisfactory as he was in possession of it, and I took him into custody - I sent him away, and he did not hear what Cox said when I arrested him - at the Police-station Cox, in the prisoner's presence, produced this authority, signed Tommy, to deliver up the goods on payment of his charges. (Chalkley here stated that he wrote this authority.) - I asked Cox where he got it from, and he said, 'I got it from GANDER' - I said to GANDER, 'Where did you get this document from?' - he said, 'I got it from him,' pointing to Chalkley - I said to Chalkley, 'How do you account for this?' - he said, 'I gave it to him' - I said, 'This is signed Tournay' - he said, 'Yes' - I said, 'Is your name Tournay? - he said, 'No; but I sign Tournay's name sometimes' - I said, 'Did you write this document?' he said, 'Yes, I admit writing that; that is my handwriting' - GANDER then produced this invoice with no heading - I asked him were he got it from - he said, 'I got it from Tournay' - I then went to look for Tournay, and have made inquiries, but have not found him - on searching GANDER I found this envelope, addressed Mr. Thomas Tournay, Phillip Lane, and also this one addressed to Messrs. Tournay and GANDER, builders, 1, Phillip Lane - I found other documents at GANDER's house, 63, Shrubbery Road, West Green, which is not far from Dudley Terrace - this card, 'A. J. Mann, lime, cement, and slate merchant, 2, Marlborough Road, Bedford Park,' was found on GANDER - on Chalkley I found this bill-heading, 'Tournay and Co., decorators and contractors, 1, Dudley Terrace,' and this letter, addressed to Messrs. Tournay and GANDER, asking for money for goods supplied - I had a warrant for Tournay and Mann - Tournay I cannot find - I believe there is a man Tournay distinct from either of the prisoners - Mann was committed for trial, but is now at North London Sessions on some other case - Jubb communicated with me three or five days before 16th December, but we had kept observation before that, as we had information about the same matter.

Cross-examined by Chalkley. You asked the question at Edmonton whether I was certain this letter was found among your papers - I don't know where Tournay is.

Re-examined. Chalkley made some remark at the station about a relative of Tourney's dying, and that the iron was to be sold to defray the funeral expenses; it would not have been sold only this occurred.

By Chalkley. I inquired, and found that Tournay was the tenant of 1, Dudley Terrace - there is a man named Robert Tournay - I saw an agreement signed Tournay.

By the COURT. Both prisoners have been in the habit of using that house.

WALTER HENBEST (Metropolitan Constable). I received instructions from Murphy to watch 1, Dudley Terrace, and I watched it from 7th till 16th December, 1892, when the prisoners were arrested - Mann was there frequently, sometimes once, sometimes twice, and sometimes three times a day - I have got a note of each particular day - I did not see either of the prisoners there before 14th - on 14th I saw Chalkley-enter 1, Dudley Terrace, and I saw GANDER it St. Ann's Road and Phillip appertaining to a general dealer - I do not know of any business carried on at 1, Dudley Terrace - I saw the words 'Builders and Decorators' outside, but in passing and repassing I have never seen any decorative business going on - I passed many times a day - it is partly a house and partly a shop - I have lived at my house for thirty